Chapter 13

Materials (VII)

“Seeking Continuity in Seeking Continuity (Seeking Continuity in TNC: Thread 2)” (Thread From Cafe Chesscourt, Page 43 of 100)

Errant KnightsMove	Posted: Apr 3, 2004 3:35 AM
Moderator Joined: Feb 11, 2000 Location: The Inside Of My Head, U.S. Posts: 3408	Further Insights from the Reversal Hypothesis: Implications for T15 and the Space Episode Tonight I was having trouble getting to sleep (once again) when inspiration struck. I was reflecting again on the difficulties involved in securing Sally and W in their roles in T15 given that a role reversal seems to have occurred since T14 and yet neither died in T14. Given the striking success of my Reversal Hypothesis in explaining OOC behavior within the Tales and in justifying scenes of otherwise gratuitous violence (Cleanth must torture Charles to death in the Non-Lucid Cleanth Episode in order for Charles to transmigrate to Cleanth and vice versa in preparation for T1), the outright failure of the hypothesis in this case has worried me a lot! But, as I said, inspiration struck. What if, I wondered, the transmigration in this case occurred not forward, but backward in time? That is, what if a death event in a following episode was retroactively responsible for the swap between T14 and T15? Now I know what you're thinking: why a special exception like that? My Hypotheses aspire to the status of scientific principles. There should be no cases they do not apply to. Ah, but that's just where my recent forays ahead of the reading schedule have proven themselves valuable, because what follows T15 provides a powerful, independent reason for believing that this kind of "retroactive transmigration" might have occurred! Let me be clear here: I am not saying that I am a superior reader or theorist for having read ahead and jumped on this revelation before any of you. I have simply had the luck to stumble upon my hypotheses, and the abundance of free time to read even more of TNC than I've been asking of you. The Hypotheses and TNC speak through me. I am merely a conduit for the brilliant structure that Salby has made for us to find here. The night before last, I found myself wanting to read on after finishing T15, and plowed right ahead into the Finale. As I have noted before, the Finale is much less coherent on average than the Tales, and I confess I skimmed through a lot of gibberish to get to the first bit that looks like a Tale. (Not that I think there is any true "gibberish" in TNC -- but I've put the Cypher Hypothesis on the back-burner because exploring the consequences of the Reversal Hypothesis have been revelatory enough for now!) The first Tale-like section in the Finale is something that I believe I have previously referred to as the "Space Episode," as it seems to be some sort of work of science fiction, set in outer space. As with most TNC "Episodes," it has its own distinctive style while still being very "TNC." For those of you who haven't yet read the Space Episode -- which I think will be all of you -- I'll provide a brief description. Summary of the Space Episode Characters: W (apparently persistent from T15), Sally (apparently persistent from T15), "the Solenoid Entity" (new), "Captain Krylov" (new), "Amsthivena" (new), "the Council of the Lenses" (new, 16 members?) Story Outline: Several pages of highly garbled material with repeated mentions of "the Solenoid Entity" (sometimes "Soliton Entity," "Selenic Entity," "Solenoid Entistry," etc.) is revealed to be a "transmission" from Captain Krylov, a spaceship captain. Inside the ship, Krylov orders W, his second-in-command, to step into the entity in order to "purify himself." W puts his space suit on, but is stopped by Sally, who in a long and bizarre scene attempts to stop him from leaving. After telling him that "those god awful chess books have turned your head" (!) and trying to convince him in various ways, she tries to seduce him, or so it seems. But this section is very confused and it's not clear to me whether I'm merely reading sexual connotations into strange phrases ("Sally went for Ws full exoteric crystal matrix as hard as graphene megavolts into his LIGHTNING FAST SPHEX transmission lost oh very good 100% on the full heavy" . . . much more in this vein). W finally decides to leave after all. Stepping through the airlock and into space, he has a surprisingly down-to-earth "conversation" with the Solenoid Entity. This is followed by a "sudden burst of static" which gradually changes into words. These words claim to be the voice of "Amsthivena," a character W appears to recognize. Amsthivena cautions W: The light, W, immolates thoroughly and without ash through all parallel paths and across all limina, leaving no ash on any radiative frequency, complete and self-sufficiently paracomplete through all parallel paths and across all limina, reaching into each precomplete and paracomplete hypostasis of the primal frequency, routing immolation beyond and through each limen and each barrier whether precomplete or paracomplete or hypercomplete. I in my precompletion maintain nonparallel paths for the lower frequency bands of my designated subdomain, but the light of the Solenoid Entity immolates. I am your guide and protector; I say unto you, I in my precompletion maintain nonparallel paths for the lower frequency bands of my designated subdomain, but the light of the Solenoid Entity immolates. (TNC p. 2856) After receiving this message, W contacts Captain Krylov "on the secret higher frequency." They have an extended, garbled and apparently hostile exchange. Some typical excerpts: W "the guide and the way and the path through regulated domains" Krylov "the angel is not distinct from the entity W a metastatic paracompletion of the primal field cannot separate figure from ground above the plain" W "without figure from ground above the plain no orienting vector" Krylop "no orienting vector but the Solenoid Entity" W "damned entity!" (TNC p. 2860) [...] Krylov "the council of the lenses knows" w "sickly men" Krylov "present amsthiveniatrana for examination to the council direct order over W" (TNC p. 2865) W then begins to converse with the "Council of the Lenses." The text specifies that it contains "sixteen outer men" (?). They are referred to by numbers and speak in all caps: Councillor 14 "WARM POOLS OUT THROUGH THAT ANGEL" Councillor 5 "ELABORATE 14" Councillor 14 "LOCAL CHIASTS HAVE FORMED STEREOSTATIC BRAID" W "how many times more" Councillor 2 "MANY" W "that entity and my angel are paired and braided" Councillor 6 "LOCAL CHIASTS WRAP THAT ANGEL IN CHAINS FOR IT PULSES WARM" Councillor 2 "NO STRUCTURE IN THE ENTITY RADIATION" Councillor 15 "PURE ZERO FROZEN CRYSTAL" W "but with the angel Amsthivena the stereostasis is broken" Councillor 1 "WARM ILLUSION" Councillor 2 "W PRECEDE ANGEL" W "before i was, there was the angel Amsthivena" Councillor 14 "LOCAL CHIASTS ADVISE UNRAVEL AND REBRAID W TO PRIMAL STATE" W "i will be remade before the birth of my angel" Councillor 2 "REBRAID W PRECEDE ANGEL" (TNC p. 2867) After the decision to "rebraid" W, the Episode ends with an account of W being flung back in time and encountering the Solenoid Entity. As common in TNC the comprehensibility quickly drops as the story nears its conclusion. The "time travel" sequence is fairly intelligible ("W saw countless aeons recede. Very long streaks of distended material moved laterally across his peripheral vision"), but the encounter with the Entity is simply several pages of material like the following: lq stand open te morable entistry, w w ent along the lineation pull x=y from aleativ noloreactor pull forth open multiplicity of rays W W cleavfth (TNC p. 2881) It ends simply with the line "W gone" (no period). T15 and the Space Episode in Light of the Reversal Hypothesis I am sure you can guess where I intend to go with this. The Space Episode involves time travel followed by (something like) death. It also has a science fiction / space opera setting, something which as far as I am aware is unique in Salby's work. My guess is that the time travel came first and the setting followed: a science fiction setting was necessary to make time travel fit naturally, and time travel was a way of allowing a death later in the text to prepare a reversal. Consider T15: W and Sally's behavior there, as I noted when we went over T15, appears clearly role-reversed. In particular, Sally is the one who expresses worries ("Clete and his boys are coming"), and W performs Sally's usual role of providing (unsuccessful) reassurance. W and Sally were not role-reversed in T14, and yet they did not die in T14. But W dies in the next story, the Space Episode, after traveling back in time. Rather than a strike against the Reversal Hypothesis, this is just a new kind of confirmatory datum! Questions Remaining Sally does not appear again in the Space Episode after W leaves the spaceship. How does she get reversed? Is there reason to believe she is sent back with W to see the Solenoid Entity? Does the transition from the Tales to the Finale have implications for the nature of reversal? If so, why? Are there Wrath Prophecies that apply here? _________________ Cafe Chesscourt Official Guy With Too Much Time On His Hands "The four stages of reading an Err post: 1. Wonder if he's joking. 2. Start thinking about his argument. 3. Keep trying to find holes in his argument until the next thing you know, it's 6 AM the next morning, and you still can't prove him wrong. 4. Conclude that the Courtverse is even weirder than you had previously thought." -GlassWave Major Theory Threads: Plainsverse!Charles \| Infinite Skycrashes \| Lorrums As Human Ancestor \| Continuity Glitches And Their Resolutions \| Multi-Manor Hypothesis \| Tracing The Upstairs White Bishop To ATT (And Beyond) \| Seeking Continuity in TNC (DGITC Warning!)

Errant KnightsMove	Posted: Apr 3, 2004 4:12 AM
Moderator Joined: Feb 11, 2000 Location: The Inside Of My Head, U.S. Posts: 3408	Errant KnightsMove wrote: Does the transition from the Tales to the Finale have implications for the nature of reversal? If so, why? Are there Wrath Prophecies that apply here? To answer my own question here: I just looked over Ch. 15 of Regained again and there's a bit that strikes me as clearly relevant! Aunt Wrath stiffened. Her bony arms retreated further toward the back of the armchair, rendering her posture somehow even more angular than before. Tom nervously eyed the board framed on the otherwise blank wall to Aunt Wrath's left, at the pieces jutting out in defiance of gravity, still fixed in the midst of a King's Indian. His gaze did not waver from the board as Aunt Wrath began to speak once again. "The Angelic Alliance will fail. I have always known this, since before you and the others were sired. What I had not known until now is that their fall will not harm us all equally. Tom, think on the relations between our kin and the Alliance. Some of us are closer to them than others; when the Alliance falls, they will suffer a great setback." (Chesscourt Regained, p. 310) A few things stand out to me here. First, of course, Amsthivena is identified as some sort of "angel," and it "fails" by not convincing W to avoid the Solenoid Entity. Second, W seems to have some personal attachment to Amsthivena, while Sally does not, and only W, not Sally, is affected by Amsthivena's failure. Third, W "suffers a great setback" -- he is literally set back in time. Fourth, Aunt Wrath initially assumed that the fall of the Alliance would "harm us all equally," and later learns that it will not. We can map this onto our expectations as Reversal Hypothesists: since we have read T15, we expect Amsthivena's failure to cause both W and Sally to be "set back," but in fact only W is "set back," since only he was "close" to Amsthivena. _________________ Cafe Chesscourt Official Guy With Too Much Time On His Hands "The four stages of reading an Err post: 1. Wonder if he's joking. 2. Start thinking about his argument. 3. Keep trying to find holes in his argument until the next thing you know, it's 6 AM the next morning, and you still can't prove him wrong. 4. Conclude that the Courtverse is even weirder than you had previously thought." -GlassWave Major Theory Threads: Plainsverse!Charles \| Infinite Skycrashes \| Lorrums As Human Ancestor \| Continuity Glitches And Their Resolutions \| Multi-Manor Hypothesis \| Tracing The Upstairs White Bishop To ATT (And Beyond) \| Seeking Continuity in TNC (DGITC Warning!)

metamarsh	Posted: Apr 3, 2004 10:11 AM
Cherub Joined: Jun 2, 2000 Location: marshland Posts: 965	Geez Err I guess I'm never going to be able to keep up with you since I actually like sleeping :P So as you can probably guess I don't think this is good for the RH at all. I just went and skimmed over the Space Episode and it's really interesting! But seriously there is NO reversal from T14 to T15, there's SORT OF a reason to expect a "backwards reversal" from Space Ep to T15, but it ONLY applies to W not Sally, and you're counting that as a SUCCESS? What WOULDNT be a success to you? Like everyone else I've always figured that prophecy was about the fact that Sally was close to the Cherubs and so when most of them were killed she got sad and couldn't help Tom plan moves etc. In other words Aunt Wrath is saying that SALLY is the one who will be hurt by the fall. But now W is hurt and Sally isn't? Seems pretty shaky to me. _________________ think for yourself, schmuck

Errant KnightsMove	Posted: Apr 3, 2004 10:23 AM
Moderator Joined: Feb 11, 2000 Location: The Inside Of My Head, U.S. Posts: 3408	metamarsh wrote: But seriously there is NO reversal from T14 to T15, there's SORT OF a reason to expect a "backwards reversal" from Space Ep to T15, but it ONLY applies to W not Sally, and you're counting that as a SUCCESS? What WOULDNT be a success to you? What wouldn't be a success? Well . . . it wouldn't be a success if there were any instance of reversal in TNC without something in the text that explains it. Is this a "normal" explanation? No. But it's much, much more than nothing! Marsh, just think how much you were hounding me about the T14/T15 reversal a few days ago. I said you were right! I said I couldn't explain it! And then this just so happened to appear as I read on. Whenever I think my theories are failing, TNC steps in to provide! metamarsh wrote: Like everyone else I've always figured that prophecy was about the fact that Sally was close to the Cherubs and so when most of them were killed she got sad and couldn't help Tom plan moves etc. In other words Aunt Wrath is saying that SALLY is the one who will be hurt by the fall. But now W is hurt and Sally isn't? Seems pretty shaky to me. No, no, no! What do I have to do to get you to think before you write stuff like this? Remember, the Reversal Hypothesis postulates that pre-TNC assertions about characters subject to reversal can apply to any character within the applicable reversal set, no matter which role they are playing in a given story. This is one of the rules of the game! We already saw this back with the Wrath Prophecy about Charles that actually applies to Cleanth ("Charles will become a master of many implements"). _________________ Cafe Chesscourt Official Guy With Too Much Time On His Hands "The four stages of reading an Err post: 1. Wonder if he's joking. 2. Start thinking about his argument. 3. Keep trying to find holes in his argument until the next thing you know, it's 6 AM the next morning, and you still can't prove him wrong. 4. Conclude that the Courtverse is even weirder than you had previously thought." -GlassWave Major Theory Threads: Plainsverse!Charles \| Infinite Skycrashes \| Lorrums As Human Ancestor \| Continuity Glitches And Their Resolutions \| Multi-Manor Hypothesis \| Tracing The Upstairs White Bishop To ATT (And Beyond) \| Seeking Continuity in TNC (DGITC Warning!)

metamarsh	Posted: Apr 3, 2004 1:40 PM
Cherub Joined: Jun 2, 2000 Location: marshland Posts: 965	Oh right sorry I forgot that you made your "Hypothesis" so vague that pretty much any prophecy could apply to anyone and mean anything you want I'll leave you to jack off some more now, you seem to be having fun :) _________________ think for yourself, schmuck

GlassWave	Posted: Apr 3, 2004 2:16 PM
Cherub Joined: Mar 25, 2002 Location: Midwest Posts: 1245	As usual, I find my intuitions at the midpoint of Err's and Marsh's. Like Marsh, I don't find the prophetic aspect of Err's speculation very compelling. The prophecy has a clear meaning within CC proper which is much less tenuous than the reading Err gives it in connection to the Space Episode. On the other hand, the idea of a "backwards reversal" excites me. It seems like TNC might be attempting to strengthen the reader's confidence in the RH by providing an apparent exception, then immediately "explaining" it in a flamboyant and highly visible fashion? (As an aside, Marsh, I think you're being a dick again, but I don't want to start the Marsh Tone Wars again so I'll leave it at that :P) One last thing that I find questionable here is the idea that internal chronology of the Space Episode is commensurable with the textual sequence of presentation. We've seen before that the Tales do not appear to take place after one another: the exechamp is treated as new and unfamiliar in T9, for instance. When W goes back in time and dies, why does he then "end up" in T15 as opposed to any other particular tale? _________________ Obnoxious pedant, incorrigible Sally/Charles advocate, the only person in existence who's favorite CC book is Sea of Glass exquisite stasis -- about Sally trapped in the plains forever, and what she did there (AU)

Lugnut	Posted: Apr 3, 2004 2:32 PM
Pawn Joined: Jun 5, 2003 Location: Auto-AI-stalkers hereby threaten'd w/ 'er Gödel sent's! Posts: 235	Mmm I jus't love a good skiffy-story, doncha too? Always a scream! (in space no'un can hear ya). So as per tempora 'n' mores chez Caffe Choicecurt METAMARSH 'nd ERRANT KNIGHTSMOVE 'nd GLASSWAVE sink their pearly whites (good mod'rn dentistry) into some tasty skiffy and find nothing inside but -- more headstands. Now I luv reversin' head n' ass as much as any1 does 2day (if not moreso!) but I hafta wonder: is this all the crit we'r ever gonna get??? Our f'rnd L. Salby's on abt immolation w/o ash and yr on abt reincarNation (my c'ntry tis of thee). What doesn't killya puts ya ass-up head-down, but what does killya . . . well, I wager the minds ('nd hearts) of Caffe Choicecurt can work that 'un out in duetime. Good'luck t'the fresh'faced! (good mod'rn dermatology)

Errant KnightsMove	Posted: Apr 3, 2004 2:37 PM
Moderator Joined: Feb 11, 2000 Location: The Inside Of My Head, U.S. Posts: 3408	Lugnut, none of your posts in these threads have contributed anything to the conversation. Please leave. _________________ Cafe Chesscourt Official Guy With Too Much Time On His Hands "The four stages of reading an Err post: 1. Wonder if he's joking. 2. Start thinking about his argument. 3. Keep trying to find holes in his argument until the next thing you know, it's 6 AM the next morning, and you still can't prove him wrong. 4. Conclude that the Courtverse is even weirder than you had previously thought." -GlassWave Major Theory Threads: Plainsverse!Charles \| Infinite Skycrashes \| Lorrums As Human Ancestor \| Continuity Glitches And Their Resolutions \| Multi-Manor Hypothesis \| Tracing The Upstairs White Bishop To ATT (And Beyond) \| Seeking Continuity in TNC (DGITC Warning!)

torgo	Posted: Apr 3, 2004 4:50 PM
Administrator Joined: Dec 11, 1999 Location: Satellite of Love Posts: 513	Just making a note here -- I've been in PM communication with lugnut and Errant KnightsMove about lugnut's posts in the TNC threads. We're still working on a solution acceptable to all parties. For now, lugnut can continue posting as he wishes, with the blessing of the administration. Carry on, guys :) _________________ You are the driver. What would you do if this happened to you?

jenni_fur	Posted: Apr 3, 2004 5:37 PM
Moderator Joined: May 17, 2000 Location: the warrens Posts: 2653	i dunno, i think lugnut has a point? (if i'm understanding him correctly, which i will admit i may not be :P) err's post about the space episode made it sound FASCINATING. so i skipped ahead and read it, and it is. it's also really . . . chilling, i guess. more than a lot of the tales, IMO. there's a lot of physical fear in the tales (exechamp, clete, cleanth, the deep ravine, etc.) but the fear and anxiety in the space episode is different, more spiritual. it seems like a fear of total oblivion, somehow more than just physical. all of the bits about "no ash" and "no structure" and so on (for those who haven't read the space episode there's a LOT of this stuff, beyond the bits err quoted) i think lugnut's saying that we need to take that seriously as a theme, and figure out what it means, without just comfortably saying that W is going to be reborn again (or was reborn, in the past, or w/e). that seems important to me, anyway. _________________ Life Among The Lorrums, a mildly AU story about our favorite not-rabbits (200k and counting!) ff.net profile "I've never had any ambitions except to be kind -- but it seems life has contrived others for me." ~Tom (Nautical Dusk) "Life without mechanical assistance? Just the idea chills me to the marrow!" ~Cleft-Ear (The Mainspring)