Chapter 5
Materials (III)
“Seeking Continuity in TNC” (Thread From Cafe Chesscourt, Page 63 of 100)
| metamarsh | Posted: Dec 23, 2003 12:20 PM |
| Cherub Joined: Jun 2, 2000 Location: marshland Posts: 965 |
Errant KnightsMove wrote:
metamarsh wrote:
Errant KnightsMove wrote:
Look, everything else aside there are exactly two exhaustive possibilities here: either the "exechamp" mentioned in T5 is the same as the "exechamp" mentioned in T3, or it isn't. If they're the same thing then we have to infer that Tom's statements about it in T3 carry over, which means the exechamp in T5 is invisible. If it isn't -- and you've already conceded that the same word can refer to distinct entities in distinct Tales -- then you can't just insist without further justification that they have the same "symbolic meaning"!
Oh no, not LOGIC again! My worst enemy!Look Err, I keep saying this, but I just do not get why you are being so literal when TNC is clearly throwing inconsistency in our faces all the time. Exechamp in tale 5 is obviously not invisible b/c everyone treats it like it's in the room with them and they can see it. I dunno what sort of magic Err Logic you're gonna pull to explain that one but I'm not buying it. So exechamp is invisible in tale 3 and not invisible in tale 5. W/e. Maybe Tom was just wrong when he said it would always be invisible! Or maybe just maybe "exechamp" is not one fixed thing. Maybe "exechamp" is just a word. A symbol. A thing that is not totally literal and consistent and all that. Why are you not getting this? Yes, Salby liked making everything consistent. I know, dude. He also wrote a series full of people getting duplicated and finding out their parents were ancient gods and casting magic spells so complicated they didn't make sense until you read the books three times. We're getting little glimpses into a confusing world and having to put the pieces together for ourselves, which is really cool, and you keep insisting on putting them together in the most literal and obvious way. _________________ think for yourself, schmuck |
| Errant KnightsMove | Posted: Dec 23, 2003 12:28 PM |
| Moderator Joined: Feb 11, 2000 Location: The Inside Of My Head, U.S. Posts: 3408 |
metamarsh wrote:
We're getting little glimpses into a confusing world and having to put the pieces together for ourselves, which is really cool, and you keep insisting on putting them together in the most literal and obvious way.
You keep using the word "literal," and to be honest I'm still not sure what you mean. Are two different exechamps with the same name more "literal" than one exechamp that is both invisible and visible? You're not proposing that the exechamp is a metaphor. You're just proposing that it's . . . vague. And TNC is already so slippery that if we let things get vague we won't be able to conclude anything.We need handholds. That's what I'm trying to give us. _________________ Cafe Chesscourt Official Guy With Too Much Time On His Hands "The four stages of reading an Err post: 1. Wonder if he's joking. 2. Start thinking about his argument. 3. Keep trying to find holes in his argument until the next thing you know, it's 6 AM the next morning, and you still can't prove him wrong. 4. Conclude that the Courtverse is even weirder than you had previously thought." -GlassWave Major Theory Threads: Plainsverse!Charles | Infinite Skycrashes | Lorrums As Human Ancestor | Continuity Glitches And Their Resolutions | Multi-Manor Hypothesis | Tracing The Upstairs White Bishop To ATT (And Beyond) | Seeking Continuity in TNC (DGITC Warning!) |
| metamarsh | Posted: Dec 23, 2003 1:49 PM |
| Cherub Joined: Jun 2, 2000 Location: marshland Posts: 965 |
Okay, now I have to spell out what I mean by "literal"? Literal as always, Err ;) Can we just table the fucking exechamp for a minute? We've gotten to tale 5 in the reading schedule but we've barely gotten to what it's ABOUT. Just how many exechamps there are and what it means that Tom starts being "Tomm" again. Like how about this? I was just looking at tale 5 and thinking, you know, this seems suspiciously similar to the convo Tom had with Melchior before visiting the Mechanicals, back in Nautical. Except this time, instead of Melchior telling Tom that he has to let his guard down among the Mechanicals or else they'll clam up and not tell him anything... we have Tom telling "W" that "W" has to let HIS guard down or else the exechamp will do something bad to him. So if we're let's say "seeking continuity" we might guess that this scene reflects Tom taking Melchior's lesson to heart. And maybe the exechamp = Mechanicals somehow? I dunno, thoughts? _________________ think for yourself, schmuck |
| Errant KnightsMove | Posted: Dec 23, 2003 2:30 PM |
| Moderator Joined: Feb 11, 2000 Location: The Inside Of My Head, U.S. Posts: 3408 |
metamarsh wrote:
Like how about this? I was just looking at tale 5 and thinking, you know, this seems suspiciously similar to the convo Tom had with Melchior before visiting the Mechanicals, back in Nautical. Except this time, instead of Melchior telling Tom that he has to let his guard down among the Mechanicals or else they'll clam up and not tell him anything... we have Tom telling "W" that "W" has to let HIS guard down or else the exechamp will do something bad to him. So if we're let's say "seeking continuity" we might guess that this scene reflects Tom taking Melchior's lesson to heart. And maybe the exechamp = Mechanicals somehow? I dunno, thoughts?
Dammit, Marsh, now I wish I had thought of this! :PYou make a compelling case for approaching T5 on this level. I hope we can resolve the more abstract, theoretical stuff at some point, but you've convinced me that there may be a fair amount of direct, content-level continuity to be found between T5 and events in CC. Not only is the Tom / W conversation reminiscent of the earlier Tom / Melchior conversation content-wise -- they take place in similar locations: Melchior's parlor was grim and gloomy, though large. Old armchairs, upholstered in faded and tattered green and smelling of mothballs and moss, stood in a haphazard formation around a low coffee table piled with dust. There was an unlit fireplace, and above it several portraits of what Tom took to be Melchior's male ancestors, dressed in the huge mortarboard caps that the Creatures wore on formal occasions. In the flickering candlelight their expressions appeared to change from moment to moment, and Tom quickly resolved not to look at them, for this appearance of animate life unsettled him. (Nautical Dusk, p. 212)
vs.
Tomm beheld a widedark with candlewax all madeup cloistered with hallowed men of old staring bore eyes changeable with licks of light from dusty murk of past age, mulled wine sipped among them, coarse taste not relieving, a skull place where Tomm W & exechamp &al. sullied porrum depth therein down culverts of thromeroom chair false spleandor, and Tomm agape
Of course T5 sounds the way T5 sounds, but the resemblance is unmistakable."Quite a dour hollow W" and W "Always been mine and theirs down the ages Tomm" "Well I'll drink to that" Tomm not sincerely but the wine was down the gullet. (TNC p. 1961) So I think if we're going to look at this on the level of character, we have to ask: how does Tomm here relate to CC Tom? To me he seems quite different in a number of ways (as usual in TNC). Tom in CC is nothing if not sincere, yet in T5 he says something "not sincerely." Later we have him advising W in a way I can't imagine CC Tom talking to anyone: W "Tomm that exechamp though frightens and nothing I can do about it"
Not only is this violent and morbid (like many things in the Tales), it also suggests a way of overcoming fear by picturing the enemy humiliated (?). Tom in CC consistently overcame his fears, when he did, by returning to thoughts of his goals and assuring himself that fleeing to safety would only be worse in the end. If this reflects some sort of "development" in Tom, what is it? I'm stumped.Tomm "Well W here's what you do you think of that exechamp in your mind and you picture its throet with the membreans down it and you think of that throet choking on something big it cant swallow and membreans straining and you see W heres the trick you've got to make it funny, such a funny picture you can't help but laugh at that choking and thats how the exechamp won't be lump down you anymore" W "round good say Tomm I can see that choke here and it's a good one" W cackling in his cheer with membreans straining. (TNC p. 1969) _________________ Cafe Chesscourt Official Guy With Too Much Time On His Hands "The four stages of reading an Err post: 1. Wonder if he's joking. 2. Start thinking about his argument. 3. Keep trying to find holes in his argument until the next thing you know, it's 6 AM the next morning, and you still can't prove him wrong. 4. Conclude that the Courtverse is even weirder than you had previously thought." -GlassWave Major Theory Threads: Plainsverse!Charles | Infinite Skycrashes | Lorrums As Human Ancestor | Continuity Glitches And Their Resolutions | Multi-Manor Hypothesis | Tracing The Upstairs White Bishop To ATT (And Beyond) | Seeking Continuity in TNC (DGITC Warning!) |
| Lugnut | Posted: Dec 23, 2003 4:53 PM |
| Pawn Joined: Jun 5, 2003 Location: Auto-AI-stalkers hereby threaten'd w/ 'er Gödel sent's! Posts: 235 |
Oh isn' this just grand -- METAMARSH 'nd ERRANT KNIGHTSMOVE throw theory away (just a buncha hairsplits doncha kno) 'nd just talk about the char's. Very reader response as filter'd down thru whatever's in vogue w/ 2day's YUTH!!! (What do they teach them at these schools?) Ofc' it won' be noticed since bio-crit is verboten -- so last century, doncha kno, the march of progress doesn' leave Caffe Choicecurt behind', we'r a free librul societ'y hur and that means ahistorical 2 tha core!! (am I down w/ 2day's YUTH now???) -- that our f'rnd L. Salby was at Harv'rd (in the libsoc U. S. o' A.) for a (curiously brief) visitin' lectureship in 1961, i.e. if you'v been following the time of Project MKUltra experiments as noted in Caffe Choicecurt "thread" Salby And CIA closed by our f'rnd ERRANT KNIGHTSMOVE (actin' as a good libsoc citizen doncha kno). Experiments involv'd (don't tell ERRANT KNIGHTSMOVE 'cause his ears 're closed'!) extreme stress such as might make a man develop some strategies that might seem "morbid" to those w/no exp'rnce in such matters (don' get me wrong, I'm glad Caffe Choicecurt is no place for bruis'd uncitizens like yours truly, we'r a sorry lot). But don' let that stop METAMARSH 'nd ERRANT KNIGHTSMOVE -- onw'rd Xian Soldiers, Free T' Choose, 'n' no historical bio-crit or abstract, theoretical stuff (sic!) w/ you'r mornin' cuppa at Caffe Choicecurt. I got no beef there' (down w/ 2day's YUTH yet???). |
| Errant KnightsMove | Posted: Dec 23, 2003 4:57 PM |
| Moderator Joined: Feb 11, 2000 Location: The Inside Of My Head, U.S. Posts: 3408 |
Oh, wonderful. It's our lucky day! Lugnut's chosen to serenade us with another Lugnut screed! Remind me again why we haven't banned this guy yet? _________________ Cafe Chesscourt Official Guy With Too Much Time On His Hands "The four stages of reading an Err post: 1. Wonder if he's joking. 2. Start thinking about his argument. 3. Keep trying to find holes in his argument until the next thing you know, it's 6 AM the next morning, and you still can't prove him wrong. 4. Conclude that the Courtverse is even weirder than you had previously thought." -GlassWave Major Theory Threads: Plainsverse!Charles | Infinite Skycrashes | Lorrums As Human Ancestor | Continuity Glitches And Their Resolutions | Multi-Manor Hypothesis | Tracing The Upstairs White Bishop To ATT (And Beyond) | Seeking Continuity in TNC (DGITC Warning!) |
| jenni_fur | Posted: Dec 23, 2003 5:54 PM |
| Moderator Joined: May 17, 2000 Location: the warrens Posts: 2653 |
Errant KnightsMove wrote:
Oh, wonderful. It's our lucky day! Lugnut's chosen to serenade us with another Lugnut screed!
because you need an admin to ban someone and torgo's a nicer guy than you and me. :PRemind me again why we haven't banned this guy yet? (besides, lugnut's interesting sometimes! a workout for the eyeballs, but interesting.) anyway, when i read tale 5 all i see is the OPPOSITE of the tom we know from CC. he seems, yes, insincere, morbid, and all of that, and also CONFIDENT in a way CC tom very much isn't. CC tom was always worrying, and had to find a balance between worrying and simply doing things. (this comes up in regained when tom has to deal with the numerous chess games and gets paralyzed and aunt mirth taunts him.) "tomm" in tale 5 doesn't seem like someone who's worked out a balance. he just seems like he doesn't care about much. nothing fazes him. it's very un-tom. it's really hard for me to see this as any kind of character development for tom. it's possible that tom has somehow been changed or controlled somehow? maybe that's where he gets the extra "m"? the tom (not tomm) in tale 1 seemed much more "tom" to me. _________________ Life Among The Lorrums, a mildly AU story about our favorite not-rabbits (200k and counting!) ff.net profile "I've never had any ambitions except to be kind -- but it seems life has contrived others for me." ~Tom (Nautical Dusk) "Life without mechanical assistance? Just the idea chills me to the marrow!" ~Cleft-Ear (The Mainspring) |
| Sally's Lil Sis | Posted: Dec 23, 2003 7:19 PM |
| Lorrum Joined: Mar 7, 2003 Location: London Posts: 550 |
Yeah I agree jenni_fur. W seems a lot more like Tom to me than Tomm does! He's afraid and worried about doing something wrong and he takes Tomm's weird advice seriously which is something Tom would do. And he keeps saying that a lot of important people have lived in his house which sounds like the Manor kinda? _________________ "Checkmate!" |
| GlassWave | Posted: Dec 23, 2003 7:45 PM |
| Cherub Joined: Mar 25, 2002 Location: Midwest Posts: 1245 |
jenni_fur wrote:
it's really hard for me to see this as any kind of character development for tom. it's possible that tom has somehow been changed or controlled somehow? maybe that's where he gets the extra "m"? the tom (not tomm) in tale 1 seemed much more "tom" to me.
I find this distinction really interesting.Generally we've tended to treat variant spellings as insignificant, given how much spelling mischief there is in TNC and how hard it is to come up with any kind of consistent explanation of what it's there for. But come to think of it, "Tomm" really does seem to correlate with moments at which Tom is less like his CC self. Even in the first appearance of the variant, back on p. 36 to p. 41, he's unusually cavalier, casually straying off from the group to check out a dead-end pathway. (Although I wonder if I would have deemed that unusually out-of-character if I hadn't been primed by the variant spelling. Tricky.) _________________ Obnoxious pedant, incorrigible Sally/Charles advocate, the only person in existence who's favorite CC book is Sea of Glass exquisite stasis -- about Sally trapped in the plains forever, and what she did there (AU) |
| metamarsh | Posted: Dec 23, 2003 9:22 PM |
| Cherub Joined: Jun 2, 2000 Location: marshland Posts: 965 |
Mmmm I'm not so sure about this. "Tomm" is always OOC but is "Tom" always IC? Not really, look at tale 2! No extra M there but his actions are WTF all the way through. Doesn't seem very "worried" in tale 2 either. We've been over this, but I still think "Tomm" is just meant to produce a certain mood, or to stand for some particular concept we haven't figured out yet. Just like the exechamp ;) _________________ think for yourself, schmuck |